Tuesday, February 27, 2007

question #1: some clarification please

In my last post I asked for someone to ask a question. Anything. And I would answer it honestly. My youngest of three sisters was first up to bat. Good question, Janice.

"About a month ago you left me wondering. Your post on Can I Get A Witness your thoughts were "guarded" (as you stated in the comments). My question to you or perhaps challenge is - to "unguard" your thoughts and write a post on how you really feel. And maybe do it in a way that we the people of plain speaking may understand it. And don't worry about scaring anyone away, I don't think we spook as easy as you might think."

Well here goes then...in plain speak.

Once again...the same post...with a little added clarity and a little less "guarded".

I've spent eight years of my life in post secondary education. (I sure wish that I was making $150,000.00 a year) That is not an entirely unusual thing. (But most of you are not nearly as educated as I am.) Most of the time though, people who dedicate that amount of time and effort, usually end up with something that they can truly hang their hat on. (Like $150,000.00 a year) A hook significant enough to securely hold their hat for a very long time.

My eight years actually produced two hooks. (Two sets of four years worth of student loans) The first was a four year religious education at a major Canadian Bible College. (I was looking for a submissive wife). The second was a four year degree in education at a secular university.(Some of my friends called it "real" school).

After my first degree, feeling the pride of my hat being well hung,(Not unlike other things) I fully expected that my formal education had officially come to an end.(I thought that maybe mom and dad were getting sick of supporting me financially). I was on my way to working in the comfort of the church's warm arms, securely tucked under the wings of an eagle.(I was the only one in my church with a degree, so I thought I was a shu-in). Spiritually speaking, that is.

Confused that I was unable to land anything of interest,(they thought I was a cocky bastard and didn't want to hire me). I became anxious about my options. (I was broke, owed the government $15,000.00, and living with my parents). Joyce and I had become serious in our relationship almost immediately and I felt pressure to make a move in a definite direction.(She had a great savings account).

Something having to do with a ship that's moving and being easier to steer got me thinking about hook number two.(I became desperate after thinking that I could attempt med school). I took the first steps and enrolled.(In the education program...how hard can it be to be a teacher? Summers off...a good pension plan). I could get a few courses credit from hook number one towards hook number two if I was willing to make religion my minor. A lot of good that had done me in the past.(What do secular professors know about religion anyway? They're not "real" Christians). I declined any credit, and so I was on square one. Four full years to go.(Dear God, not again). We can do this.(With a little help from Jack Daniels).

The years passed quickly.(I was drunk most of the time(not really)...but maintained a 3.8 GPA).

The first two of four children were born and I was feeling a little less anxious every year.(Actually Jane cried for her first full year of life which made me crazy, Joyce and I weren't getting along, I hated school and my job at The Keg, and we were barely making ends meet financially).

Teaching was definately my thing. I was good enough. I was smart enough. And gosh darn it, my students liked me.(My lessons consisted of sing-alongs with me on the guitar and a bucket of candy. What 8-year-old WOULDN'T like me?).

Nearly ten years and three schools of friends later(and maybe one janitorial enemy...no, not you Donny), I've come to love how my hat hangs firmly on it's place(Here's where things get a little more serious). Occasionally I walk past the place on the wall where the first hook is mounted.(I look back at all that I have ever learned and come to believe about God, the church, faith, history, science, truth, the future). I've taken some of the mounting hardware and used it elsewhere.(There is a lot that I no longer believe in about my learned Faith and have come to believe in something much more empirical). It hangs there loosely.(Actually it is barely holding on). I never use it.(I 'm not angry...or afraid...I just don't believe it anymore).

I was asked a few days ago by someone who uses a similar hook if I ever used it.(He asked me if I was a Christian). I had to say no.(Not in the sense that your typical North American fundamentalist would be).

I remembered a time when I would also move about asking anyone if they had a place to hang their hat, or whether they would like one.(I was on a Christian Service team at Bible College where we would go to the local University and try to win some souls). I actually took a freshman course where I was taught how to do this. I was told that I was salty and that when people tasted me, they would become thirsty.(We were quite full of ourselves). Taste and see that I am good. I was afraid.(Do people really want to have me come up to them, cold, and tell them that I've got it right?). I didn't want people to taste me.(What right did I have to assume that they wanted to?)

I was required to write about at least one actual contact where I offered my seasoning. Witnessing, it was called. That was the first and only assignment where I received a 0%.(I protested that this was an unfair assignment. I still received a zero).

Sinse then(Now that my change of heart has become more apparent), I've become a target.(people tend to say things a little differently than they would have a year ago). People are now coming to me with their salt and offer it sheepishly.(I think they are really still trying to convince themselves of it).
Taste and see...they say.(You just don't have enough faith...).
No thanks...I'm feeling a little full(It's just not believable anymore).

So now, Janice, if you're not too spooked, let's see what you have to say...or anyone else for that matter. I welcome your comments. Try to be nice.

42 comments:

mmichele said...

hmmm...
now i'm interested in what you have come to believe... i know what you don't believe, at least a bit, but i would like to know what you do believe. (but i want to hear about lunches first.)

many months ago i read a post by someone who was kinda complaining and saying that the xians he knows don't allow for ambiguity...like nothing in life should be grey. and i thought, oh my, i am so grey, and most of my friends are, and we're just kinda messing around with fingerpaints and trying to figure it out how rembrandt did it but never really figuring it out except for maybe a moment or two now and then. and then it's gone.

finally, i think i was once enrolled in a course like your 0 except i dropped it as soon as i realized what they were asking us to do. i actually had to change my major because it was required for what i thought i would major in (which i can't remember now.)

Anonymous said...

Okay Brian I'll admit it I am a little spooked, not of you and trust me you can't get rid of me that easy. But I am spooked about what I should say now. I want to say the right thing. But before I do that - and at the risk of sounding like a moron - I need more clarification. So a couple of questions for you:
1. Do you believe that Jesus died on the cross for your sins?
2. Do you still have Jesus in your heart?
3. Does any of this still matter to you at all?

Anonymous said...

I apologize if that last question sounds harsh, it's not meant to.

Rosster said...

Brian

I hear you..
I could have written this same post about me (but I don't have the courage)
What causes fear in some is encouragment to others
Thanks

D

Brian the Mennonite said...

Michele: I'll answer a little of your question here as some others are probably wondering the same.

When I say that I have come to believe in something else, it isn't that I'm adopting another religion or ism. I have difficulty with parts of all faiths that I am familiar with.
What I have come to believe is a new starting point. I said that it was something more empirical. i.e. something that I can see, touch, hear, etc. It is all dependent on evidence or consequences that are observable by the senses. Empirical truth is that which is produced by experiment or observation. I need to be at this place because I want to own what I know.
Who or what, then, will guide me? I don't know for certain. Who or what guided humankind for thousands of years before we had language or any sacred texts at all? All of what has been written has simply been man's attempt to interpret his experiences and find a way of coping with new empirical knowledge. Everyone has their own experiences and and their own method of coping. I've come to realize, in all likelihood, that truth is local. When new evidence is discovered, we change. Just like this whole Family of Jesus thing that is going on right now. What does this all mean? I'm not certain. But if humans can approach this rationally rather than defensively, I'm sure sense will be made of it. I don't think there should be any particular rush at finding out. Let's collaborate on this thing, not destroy one another. There should be enjoyment in the process, not fear.

Anonymous said...

Brian,
well this sounds like too much fun. Here are two questions if you feel so inclined to answer them:

1. why isn't God a girl? (that's my daugher's question. she's seven.)
2. can you comment on the connection between having a religion or faith system and morality. what do you suppose compels some people to not believe in anything or remain neutral and still stick to a moral code? I think values are all relative, but then evil doesn't really exist does it? It only exists in the eye of the beholder. This is my question. I am thirty four.

Anonymous said...

oh it's me, Joanne up there.

Brian the Mennonite said...

Janice: Sorry it has taken me a bit to answer you. I had to think about this for a while. Your additional questions seemed a little out of place. This is just a quick analogy off the top of my head, but it seems a little like asking a man who has just been set free from prison if he still feels confined living in a small jail cell. The problem with that question is, he's not living in his cell any longer. The question is no longer applicable.

"Does any of this matter to me at all?" Of course it does. Do you think that I would come to this kind of conclusion on a whim...or simply to get some attention? I get plenty attention as it is. And if I was convinced that I needed these beliefs as fire insurance, I wouldn't be so hasty in giving them up. What I'm doing is tearing away anything that I can no longer agree with, and begin again. Whether Jesus was God or if he even actually came to live in the hearts of humankind in the sense that we've long been taught is a really big question for me. I am no longer convinced that that was his purpose. He came to point humankind to God. Not a Christian God, Jewish God, Hindu or Islam God. And maybe not even a God who is as concerned with each and every one of our precious personal welfares as we like to imagine. How else can you explain the randomness of the "blessings" in the world...sin? I don't think so. Our lives are what we make of it mixed with a whole lot of luck. I think each one of us is supposed to sort it out. And not selfishly either, but together. I think that was Christ's purpose...to unify the people.

If that's what it means for Jesus to dwell in the hearts of men, then he's in mine. But if it's a fire insurance and a reason for me to wipe my brow in relief, then no.

Good questions, though, Janice. I hope we can still be family.

Brian the Mennonite said...

Rosster: Yor comment by itself was soothing to receive, but when they are mixed with the familiarity and wisdom of their source, the healing powers increase exponentially. You have helped me to feel peace today. Thanks buddy.

Remember that curried apple soup we made for our ladies? I'm making it again for the soup couse for a dinner party on Mar. 9th. Can you guys make it?

Brian the Mennonite said...

Joanne: Welcome here again. Whenever I see the name Joanne, I wonder if it is my sister Joanne or sister-in-law Joanne from B.C. But I think you are the one from Joyce's ugly sweater party, am I right?

Anyways...your questions, and your answers.

1. That would make more sense wouldn't it? A mother hen cluck, cluck, clucking to assure us that everything is alright. When I was in Bible School we read that God is neither male nor female, but rather spirit...possessing attributes of both. And when God created man in his own image, we all possess all the same attributes of God, both male and female. Kind of like a stamp. The image looks like the original.

2. Great question. I mean it. I've thought about this a lot and the only thing I can think of to say as a reasonable and logical answer is that for every action there is a motive. If the action continues to meet an objective, the after a while, the action becomes almost second nature, even expected. Take honesty, for example. Is there any reason in the world for an athiest to desire to be honest? Seems unlikely. Unless it can be used to her advantage. What advantage could there possibly be in being honest. Trust. If one is never honest, she can never be trusted, and that could prove to be detrimental in getting ahead. If she IS honest, then trust is established and she can gain from the relationship. Multiply this by thousands of people over thousands of years, and suddenly you have a society that desires honesty and they classify it as morality, simply because it was initially, and continues to be, advantageous to do so. And all without motivation from a diety.

Your other statements about values being relative and evil being non-existent I'm not so sure about. I agree that values are relative. Some things are minor like body odour and personal space. Other things are a little more serious like integrity.
I think evil exists in bringing harm to another's reality. Beyond that, I'm not sure.

Great questions, Joanne. Thanks.

Rosster said...

Brian

Wise...I doubt it but thanks
"Wise guy"? ... probably closer to the truth


Curried apple soup?... of course i remember. Along with the over cooked chicken (my bad) and the Concha del Toro (nice pic) We'd love to come on the ninth, but we can't. Let's plan, Dinner for the Ladies - Part Deux (I'm serious)

Romeo Morningwood said...

Gone Fishing
The prospect of entering the Sea of Reality is a daunting one.
Once you paddle out your leaky boat, toss yourself overboard along with your untethered anchor the sharks start circling.

The 'salt' content of the water hurts your eyes and annoyingly increases your bouyancy which leaves you vulnerable at the surface.

If there is a huge amount of 'salt' (Dead Sea) you float like a cork and find it difficult to dive.

The sun is going to bake your noodle and you start to dehydrate despite being surrounded by water.

Sharks usually make an exploratory bump..this is to see if you are edible and to gauge the amount of resistance that will be offered.

Because we are delicate little things and our skin softens by absorbing so much moisture we become tenderized. This makes even a slight taste test by a shark dangerous. Sharks can only test you with their teeth and they are overwhelmed by the electrical impulses of your heart and the pale colour of your skin..
white in the ocean means death.

If you are lucky and there is only one shark they may decide that you are too much work or too skinny (compared to a nice, juicy sea lion) and move on.

If another shark arrives the competition begins.

Instinctively you learn to jab the sharks on the their sensitive nose and gills. They hate that. If you are really lucky you will float in with the tide. When you can touch the bottom with your feet..
well, nothing feels better than finally touching the bottom.

You can see the shore but you still have to fight a lot of drag to make it to the beach. The sharks can follow you right up to the shoreline so you keep scanning the horizon for fins.

If you do make it you realise that you are lost on some desert island and have to start from scratch.
A new beginning but atleast you have some terra firma underneath and it feels more natural.

Anonymous said...

I think I started something that I am not wise enough to finish. Give me sometime to think about this.

Oh, and we are always family - even if you are frustrating the hell out of me right now.

Brian the Mennonite said...

Rosster: Wisdom AND humility...I like that!
Let's make a plan sooner than later.

Shark boy: It seems to me that your shark encounter is not simply encouragement to me, but full of personal experience.

I wonder if people eat shark fin soup simply because it's the part of the shark that gives the warning of presence before the strike. It's man's way of fighting back in an otherwise hopeless struggle.

Janice: Take all the time you need. There is no rush on my account.
I think you're frustrated because you feel you need to convince me of something, and I'm not looking for that from you or anyone else. This process shouldn't be fraught with urgency or anxiety. I'm calm and peaceful. I'm excited about this.
Take a deep breath and take your time.

mmichele said...

and now i have a question for janice (hope this is alright but i am naturally curious):

why is a family member's search for truth frustrating to you?

(i noticed that brian has a theory, but i wonder what you have to say)

Anonymous said...

Brian,
Thank you for stirring the pot.
Joanne from the sweater party

Anonymous said...

Simple faith is better than educated folly.........just because you do not believe does not make God go away! He still believes in you, and so do I.

I am not going to argue, just pray.
-Love ya Brian
-your sister, Joanne

Brian the Mennonite said...

Sister Joanne,
Those sayings are quite cute and muster a certain amount of sentiment. But cute and sentimental doesn't equal truth. That's my problem...I'm tired of cute and sentimental. Now it's time for the next step. REALITY.

I love you too. And not just sentimentally. I really do.

Anonymous said...

Brian,
you want truth, well here is my truth as it has happened to me...
About 9 years ago I fell into a pit of dispair. My depression was so deep that I truly wanted to end it all. At times I physically could not pick myself up off the floor. I couldn't figure out what was wrong with me. God felt a million miles away. One of these times on the floor I cried out to God "Where are you, why have you left me, what can I do Lord to pull myself out of here?" From that moment on I felt the uncontrolable need to dive into the bible - if you could glimpse into my home at that time you would see me in my flower wing back chair searching for answers, searching for anything God could give me to pull me through...you see Brian this is where we are different I RAN to God where you ran to the world.
God showed me that I needed to change somethings in my life, which I had chosed to ignore, and this is the only way He could get my attention. I didn't want to face these things. It was hard, but slowly, and with me giving God my problems to Him over and over and over again He helped me face what I needed to face. He picked me up, He held me, when I felt alone He brought people into my life that would just listen and understand - I love these people deeply to this day. The truth is Brian that if God isn't real, then I wouldn't be here right now. It is because of Him that you can still call me sister. I don't have to see Him to know He exists, I feel Him, He lives within me. My life has not been perfect - and no Christian should expect that - but through the ups and downs He continues to be there, I may not feel Him as strongly as I did at that time. But He's there Brian, I can sense Him. So tell me, how can you deny that?

joyce said...

Having acknowledged the "ouch" over the world/God thing, I'll communicate my other thoughts.

Firstly, I'm sincerely sorry to hear of your depression. Sorry also that I was entirely unaware, and grateful that you had supports.

God is love. Its hard to rest in that when ambiguity exists, but redemption exists in grace, and not in condemnation.

mmichele said...

okay.
i'm just an innocent bystander here, janice, and of course you don't HAVE to answer my question, but your earlier response didn't give me any idea as to why someone's search for truth is so troublesome to you.

if jesus really meant it when he said that those who seek, find, then i would think you would celebrate a family member's search.

if god is really big enough to handle brian seeking, then you can trust that someday brian will find.

might not be in YOUR timing. but saying stuff like he's turning to the world just because he is seeking just isn't fair and i don't think it's what jesus would do. and honestly comments like that would scare me away forever if i was him.

Brian the Mennonite said...

Janice,
Wow. I love what you wrote here. And it makes me think that I have perhaps been spending way too much time with just Joyce's family and not really getting to know my own. I had no idea. And I'm sure there are many other stories like that. Real stuff...real feelings.

I read something great just a few days ago which applies to your situation perfectly.
"Religion is for those who are afraid of going to hell. Spirituality is for those who have already been there." Your depression was a terrible place to be, and God met you there. I would NEVER deny you that. How could I?

Spirituality recognizes that everyone's reality is valid, no matter what beliefs they hold. Religion compares, and then either condones or condemns.

I have a feeling that what many people really desire is the freedom of true spirituality rather than the absolutism of dogma. There's a lot of fear in taking the first steps. I am moving away from religion and towards freedom. I believe there's a God, I just don't think that he's as absolute as the great religions have written that he is.

Once again, Janice, thanks for what you wrote. I means a lot to me.

Anonymous said...

Michele,

Your answer to my frustrations:
I grow frustrated when I don't understand what is written.
I grow frustrated when (like Brian said) I am fearful of what I do understand.
I grow frustrated when the truth is known and seemed to be disgarded.
I know everyone will come to their version of the truth. But I believe that the basic fundamentals of faith should be the solid ground where all of lifes truths should be built.

Brian,
thank you for accepting what I had to say. I will trust that you will hold them close, ponder, and hopefully pray about all of this. Know that everything said was done with love, and possibily out of some fear for your future. I love you!


And now on a lighter note - we sure spiced up your blog this week didn't we!?

Brian the Mennonite said...

Janice,
It's about f***ing time this space had a little spice. It's been fairly dry here for a while. Thanks for starting it all.

Brian the Mennonite said...

Just one more thing Janice. Please don't worry about my future. To tell you the truth, I haven't felt this free and peaceful in a very long time. I think I'm on to something here.

Rosster said...

One of my favorite quotes.
"You should always follow the one who seeks truth, and run away from the one who has found it." -Andre Gide

Anonymous said...

Good grief, Rosster is a Gideon

Brian the Mennonite said...

Rod,
Do you mean the Bible distributers or the guy with the fleece? And if either...how so?

Anonymous said...

Ummm Rosster quoted Andre GIDE...that would make him a ...GIDEON. (I hate it when the jokes go right by them)

Brian the Mennonite said...

So is he the guy with the fleece then? I don't get it.

anna said...

Wow, this has been an interesting post and comment section. I had a similar conversation with a dear friend this morning, but I don't want to get into that.

I have a question also, but it's a little (or maybe a lot) off topic. You mentioned in this post that you were "looking for a submissive wife". Would you mind explaining what you mean by "submissive wife"?

By the way, so happy to hear you're feeling free and at peace. :)

Unknown said...

Rod

It took a few moments but I got the joke...Good One!! My dad who's a big fan of the Gideon's would be so proud

D

Brian the Mennonite said...

Anna,
Off topic is O.K.
The submissive wife statement was a comment on a couple of aspects of Christian culture. The biblical woman is one which is typically quiet, industrious, and, among my other virtuous things, submissive to her husband in the marriage relationship.
The other aspect is that people who go to Bible College are often teased that they are REALLY going to BRIDAL College. To find a husband/wife.
The last time you asked a question, when our paths initially crossed, I commented back to your question saying that I feel I may have disappointed you with my answer. I won't say that this time. No assumptions this time.

Darryl,
I still don't get it. Is there a music group called the Gideons?

Unknown said...

If you are ever in a hotel room and find a Bible in the desk drawer, you know the Gideons have been there. Maybe you and I should start a guitar duo with that name. Our first cd could be called "Giddeup"

D

Brian the Mennonite said...

Nice. I'd look forward to our practises. Guitar and lots of booze to get the creative juices flowing...or something.

Cream said...

Brian, I have enjoyed this post very much. And the comments to go with it.
I have had just about the same thought since the age of 15 even though I was born in a Muslim country and family.
And I am still searching...

Christine said...

And the deepest post of the year award goes to... ;) I can only speak from my personal experience, Brian. I relate to everything you have to say and I'm excited that you've found this new freedom.

I started searching for answers at a very young age. My parents didn't go to church, so I tagged along with friends families quite often. The great thing about living in the city was that I was privileged to have friends from all backgrounds. I spent time in a number of churches and I asked a lot of questions. I was always answered with kindness. The message is always the same, LOVE.

You're a good man who is very loved and who loves right back. Enjoy your journey! :)

Brian the Mennonite said...

Cream,
Your experiences were much the same and yet in a completely different reality. I think that's what makes humanity as beautiful as it is. The people in your life who have supposedly found the answers may perhaps be just as concerned about you and your journey as the people are in mine...and yet all believing COMPLETELY different things. I think life is all about the journey and the search, not in the destination. Why should there be condemnation in that? Happy trails, Cream.

Christine,
Oh, go on...but thank you. I never imagined that this would become what it has. And here it is, nearly 40 comments later. I've never had it so...commenty.

esther said...

WOW!!!
this comment section has been one CRAZY ride...i'm a little late in commenting here, just wanted you to know i stopped by...
again...:)

WithinWithout said...

Wow, Brian, where have I BEEN? I kept coming back to your blog but saw nary a thing...

And then I see this. I'm with Christine, this is the deepest, most personal exchange of inner selves that I've seen anywhere, any time, in the blog world.

And I salute you and respect you greatly for allowing it to happen.

Personally, I'm totally with Michele and her questions of Janice, who we must equally and deeply respect as your sister.

This is YOUR journey and it can't have been an easy one, but it has taken a great deal of personal courage and what I'm guessing has been a very painful questioning of what you have always believed before.

Every individual should be permitted to believe what they want to believe, and they shouldn't be forced to follow a path they're not comfortable with out of fear.

I admire you a great deal, Brian.

Brian the Mennonite said...

Esther,
Crazy ride indeed. I'm glad you made it here though. It's always good to have someone I actually know pop in.

Chris,
Thank you very much.
It was a bit frightening at first with the reactions and wondering what people were actually thinking, but overall this is turning out to be a good time for clarification and stretching. Perhaps we'll have a chance to talk about it some day at Donn and Alice's...with the music turned WAY down.

WithinWithout said...

Oh, so the music was too loud?

What you have to do with Donn is tell him to turn his own volume down...and then tell him to turn the sound system volume down.

:-)